Thoughts on Renovation?

• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-06-02 23:05
  Dungeons have terrible rewards, outdated mechanics, and are generally inaccessible. After you've nabbed whatever Celtic weapons you want, they instantly become obsolete. The most "overpowered" thing in dungeons is probably CC+4 Lightning Bolt because it's got the fastest ranged AOE and you can kill damn near everything by accidentally tripping over your own feet.
  
  Final Hit slaughters everything else worth tackling alongside AOE-heavy talents like magic, ninja, and gunslinger.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-07 20:40
  Honestly, I think MapleStory and Vindictus handle their class/character/content changes a lot better than what Mabinogi has done...
• Syliara wrote on 2015-06-07 22:26

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277617:

  Honestly, I think MapleStory and Vindictus handle their class/character/content changes a lot better than what Mabinogi has done...

  
  
  Vindictus is worse in a sense... Instead of having it easy to slaughter content like in mabi its takes a ton of money to get to that point but its still there. Even if you dont have the gear u can just spam goddess graces and merc pots and get the same result. Nexon doesnt know how to balance, period. Doesnt matter what game, theres still very little balance to be had...
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-07 22:50

  Quote from Syliara;1277624:

  Vindictus is worse in a sense... Instead of having it easy to slaughter content like in mabi its takes a ton of money to get to that point but its still there. Even if you dont have the gear u can just spam goddess graces and merc pots and get the same result. Nexon doesnt know how to balance, period. Doesnt matter what game, theres still very little balance to be had...

  
  
  I don't recall goddess graces and merc pots being easy to get...
• Syliara wrote on 2015-06-08 00:35

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277626:

  I don't recall goddess graces and merc pots being easy to get...

  
  
  They are much easier to get now compared to before. Do a bit of gacha or use some ap on the ap shop (i believe the ap shop sells graces and merc pots) and before u know it u can solo a lot of content by just face tanking it. My main point though was that the difference in mabi balance issues and vindi balance issues is that in vindi theres a much higher pay2win requirement than mabi to reach that status of "broken". To be honest i like mabi's better since it doesnt force you to pay a lot to get to a more broken status like vindi does (unless ur ungodly lucky).
• Kapra wrote on 2015-06-08 01:21

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277617:

  Honestly, I think MapleStory and Vindictus handle their class/character/content changes a lot better than what Mabinogi has done...

  
  MapleStory handles their classes better than Mabi? Haha, good one. At least in Mabi only one race is useless and all skillsets have SOME sort of use. And when Mabi makes a skillset update, there's at most 3 things that need to be retconned updated. MapleStory? You need to update a class several times after you just updated it because you keep screwing over the entire order on multiple classes in one go. Mabi has terrible balance, but at least its not MapleStory.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-08 01:40
  My point is, Vindictus and Maple are largely adapting and 99% of every piece of their content is at least getting overhauled and evolving. What has Mabinogi done? Shit out newer content while simultaneously abandoning older concepts. Dungeons are trash, scroll quests are trash, pets are pretty damn laughable outside of AoEs, etc.
  
  Hurk and Angelic Buster were ridiculously broken on introduction. I believe they did a couple things to nerf Hurk and are still planning out ways to do so, while IIRC Angelic Buster got shit on real hard. Mabinogi instead nonsensically buffed Bash, Final Hit, Lightning Rod, etc. to extreme levels and no effort was done to bring them back down.
  
  

  Quote from Kapra:

  MapleStory handles their classes better than Mabi?

  
  
  *Brings out Archer revamp comparison sheet*
• Syliara wrote on 2015-06-08 02:35

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277631:

  My point is, Vindictus and Maple are largely adapting and 99% of every piece of their content is at least getting overhauled and evolving. What has Mabinogi done? Shit out newer content while simultaneously abandoning older concepts. Dungeons are trash, scroll quests are trash, pets are pretty damn laughable outside of AoEs, etc.
  
  Hurk and Angelic Buster were ridiculously broken on introduction. I believe they did a couple things to nerf Hurk and are still planning out ways to do so, while IIRC Angelic Buster got shit on real hard. Mabinogi instead nonsensically buffed Bash, Final Hit, Lightning Rod, etc. to extreme levels and no effort was done to bring them back down.
  
  
  
  *Brings out Archer revamp comparison sheet*

  
  
  Ok so first of all, comparing vindi content to mabi content is like comparing a lake to an ocean. Mabi has tonnnnnnnsss more content than vindi does if we talk about all of the content, not just the relevant content. Changing vindi content and evolving it is a lot easier than changing all of mabi's content to fit the new time (now if they had upkept it along the way it wouldnt have been so hard but now theres so much forgotten content that its just too much for them to worry about). All of that aside, old vindi content isnt even changed much anyways. I have played vindi since beta and for the most part I kept up with it, since I played it about a month ago the only changes I saw to older content was some useless npc gear added to boss drops and maybe some exp and gold values changed for quests and dungeon clears. Vindi has basically the same issue as mabi with irrelevant content on a much smaller scale, nexon isnt going to go back and add/change the really old content thats irrelevant to mid-end game and even the content thats mid-end game has hardly been touched since release. The only thing that has been done to season 1 raids has been adding in hero mode versions of it for higher drop rates on rare things (which is basically nothing but buffing hp/defense/damage/speed to the bosses) and as far as I can tell the only things done to season 2 was an increase in exp values to the mainstream quest version of the dungeons. Vindi isnt much different from mabi when it comes down to balancing incompetence, its just on a much smaller scale and a bit more difficult to see than mabi.
  
  Also, nerfing characters is only something that looks good for balancing when comparing it to the other characters. However, when that "nerfed" character has end game equipment and tons of merc pots/goddess graces it can still solo 99% of the content in that game because its still unbalanced as fk.
  
  I have no comment for maplestory since I havent played it nor do I have any interest in playing it.
• Bunny wrote on 2015-06-08 18:18

  Quote from Kapra;1277629:

  MapleStory handles their classes better than Mabi? Haha, good one. At least in Mabi only one race is useless and all skillsets have SOME sort of use. And when Mabi makes a skillset update, there's at most 3 things that need to be retconned updated. MapleStory? You need to update a class several times after you just updated it because you keep screwing over the entire order on multiple classes in one go. Mabi has terrible balance, but at least its not MapleStory.

  
  
  Mabinogi: PAY2WIN
  Maplestory: EXTREME PAY2WIN TURBO MODE (DON'T PLAY IF YOU DON'T PAY)
  
  Literally.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-06-08 18:33

  Quote from Kaeporo;1277187:

  Dungeons have terrible rewards, outdated mechanics, and are generally inaccessible. After you've nabbed whatever Celtic weapons you want, they instantly become obsolete. The most "overpowered" thing in dungeons is probably CC+4 Lightning Bolt because it's got the fastest ranged AOE and you can kill damn near everything by accidentally tripping over your own feet.
  
  Final Hit slaughters everything else worth tackling alongside AOE-heavy talents like magic, ninja, and gunslinger.

  
  
  You forgot all those pesky dungeon specific enchants that have somewhat low drop rates. Devcat intentionally designed it to make people run as much boring dungeons as possible to get the best magic gear in the game >.>
  
  

  Quote from Bunny;1277686:

  Mabinogi: PAY2WIN
  Maplestory: EXTREME PAY2WIN TURBO MODE (DON'T PLAY IF YOU DON'T PAY)
  
  Literally.

  
  
  To the point of not being able to boss at all unless you cube the shit out of your gear. It's absolutely atrocious and terrible. Fuck Maplestory.
• Bunny wrote on 2015-06-08 19:01

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1277687:

  To the point of not being able to boss at all unless you cube the shit out of your gear. It's absolutely atrocious and terrible. Fuck Maplestory.

  
  
  Even after finishing up some OP cubed gear, they keep releasing new and better armor sets so you'd have to re-cube all over again eventually.
  Pretty sickening amount of money. At least mabi makes all of the reforges tradable!
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-08 19:08
  :sigh: Why do you guys care so much about pay2win? It's not like it's ever needed to actually advance into the game. I mean sure there's struggle without p2w but it's not like its impossible.
  
  That's far from the point I was driving across anyway.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-06-08 19:08

  Quote from Bunny;1277689:

  Even after finishing up some OP cubed gear, they keep releasing new and better armor sets so you'd have to re-cube all over again eventually.
  Pretty sickening amount of money. At least mabi makes all of the reforges tradable!

  
  
  and here I thought reforging and enchant protection was bad enough. Nah, it's a small drop in the bucket compared to Maplestory. At least when you reforge in Mabinogi it will last forever. Very rarely is there content released that require reforges and reforge effects rarely get changed if ever.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277690:

  :sigh: Why do you guys care so much about pay2win? It's not like it's ever needed to actually advance into the game. I mean sure there's struggle without p2w but it's not like its impossible.
  
  That's far from the point I was driving across anyway.

  
  
  Because games that become pay2win suck. I would say Runescape doesn't have any pay2win but that would be a lie as they have the Treasure Hunter "gach" that allows you to get free exp and bonus exp, and the occasional bonus exp outfit to help speed up skill training. However, most of that shit is available through other means these days and you can get free treasure hunter keys from doing active playing throughout the day and you can easily buy bonds in game to get it yourself.
  
  That's beside the point I suppose. In terms of pay2win this is how I order the sinners in the games I've played.
  
  Maplestory -> Mabinogi -> Runescape
  1000x (Cubing to the extreme!) -> 10x (Combo Cards + Reforges) -> 2x (Bonus Exp from TH, mostly cosmetic stuff though)
  
  That being said my pay2win complaints of Mabinogi are pretty minor.
• Kapra wrote on 2015-06-08 20:40

  Quote from Darkboy132;1277690:

  :sigh: Why do you guys care so much about pay2win? It's not like it's ever needed to actually advance into the game. I mean sure there's struggle without p2w but it's not like its impossible.
  

  
  In case of MS2 some things are impossible even with a fully party if nobody is on steroids.
  
  In Mabi's case, p2w arguments are almost meaningless.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-06-08 21:48
  it's really about the f2p model being utter trash, though mabi is one of the best free to play models out there though it used to be one of the worst.